A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

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A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by eddiea on 2013-03-08, 11:18

Recently, I started re-grouping my collection, sold some, bought some and in the process I found couple newer divers for sale that for whatever reason, the original owner decided to re-lumed.
While nothing wrong with that, the owner failed to re-test/re-certified the watch to the rated 1000meter W/R , claiming that.
1- He wasn't planing to dive deeper than 100 meters.
2-The relume shop (in this case IWW) did not have the equipment to test 1000meters.
3- He felt the watch was new , so were the gaskets, so no need, really !
4- He believe micros (the watches were Armidas) do not really test for W/R

I pass on both watches with a thank you for your reply and without argumenting and here are my thoughts ...
1-Both watches were posted (one still is) in the sales fora at WUS as 1000meters W/R but reality is, the seller don't know that for sure.
2- The fact that the original owner wasn't planning to dive below 100meters is irrelevant .
3-He's believes about micros not testing their watches are wrong , I tested..
my bronze 500meters rated Zenton and passed the 625meters test (25% more than the stated W/R) with flying colors.
What are you guys thoughts on the subjet?



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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by FreeDive on 2013-03-08, 11:28

I think if a guy is gonna open a case of a dive watch, especially one with a rating that deep, he needs to re-certify it's water resistance. If this were a standard 100M or 200M, i could understand not re-certifying (like, after a battery change), but in a 1000M watch, a buyer should be able to assume that it will perform as designed by the manufacturer.

If i were the buyer I would assume every right to either:
1 - request a certification of depth rating
or 2 - reduce the asking price to reflect the cost of having the watch tested.

Personally, even if the seller or IWW could come back and say it's been tested at 300, 400, whatever...that would be enough for me.
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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by aztecknight on 2013-03-08, 12:35

When I buy a used watch, I assume that it could have been opened. I would even go as far as to say that many more watches than we think on the used market have been opened at some point. Having said that, a properly designed watch with seals in good conditions and a properly sealed case back should still be able to pass any certification test it passed originally.

Manufacturing is intended to make processes and results repeatable, so as long as the caseback and seals are properly installed, I have no reason to think the watch is WR no more.

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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by eddiea on 2013-03-08, 14:23

aztecknight wrote:When I buy a used watch, I assume that it could have been opened. I would even go as far as to say that many more watches than we think on the used market have been opened at some point. Having said that, a properly designed watch with seals in good conditions and a properly sealed case back should still be able to pass any certification test it passed originally.

Manufacturing is intended to make processes and results repeatable, so as long as the caseback and seals are properly installed, I have no reason to think the watch is WR no more.
Point missed...if you post a watch for sale as been W/R to a particular deep , it better be true...
If you opened a watch without re-certifing the W/R back, then you should state so, anything else is deceptive.
I agree with you that manufactures intended to make processes and results repeatable...that is by qualified watchmakers, using the right equipment....
I'll give you an example, recently I sold Mortuus my Tisot Seastar 1000...a few years back, I have the watch service and spa treated the case and bracelet, I asked for a W/R test and certification (300meters)...something Swatch Miami Service Center did for an additional $69.00, no problems .
Very few (if any) of these Mod Shops have the right equipment ...
Take a look at the MCWW (Motor City Watch Works) disclaimer...

"Pressure testing:
Up to 7 ATM dry test: ..........8

3 ATM wet test: ..........15

11 ATM wet test: ..........20

Pressure test rating is based on the dry and wet testers pressure gauge. One ATM (atmosphere) is appromimately 33.6 feet. The test provided is a not a guarantee of waterproofness but a pass / fail test that your watch will keep water out at the depth tested to.

The depths tested to are not a direct indication that your watch can't go deeper, they are based on the maximum depth my machines can test.

If your watch fails the dry test it will require a wet test to find the location of the leak. You can choose to replace the bad gasket(s), take the watch as is knowing the watch failed, or replace all the gakets. These options will be discussed in further detail if the watch fails the test."

http://www.motorcitywatchworks.com/services.html

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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by 3flushes on 2013-03-08, 15:11

The truth is it is comparatively very inexpensive to pressure test a watch. My watchmaker charges $16 for a dry pressure test without opening the back and inspecting the gaskets. So if your seller's lume guy replaced/refreshed the gaskets (but with what- the good stuff, nitrile, or viton, if the watch is spec'ed for it?) he could offer it for sale with confidence to the buyer for very little money, and I agree with you that he should have.


Last edited by 3flushes on 2013-03-08, 15:24; edited 1 time in total
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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by kahuna74 on 2013-03-08, 15:16

Wow, very good information guy's. Thank you for this thread.
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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by aztecknight on 2013-03-08, 18:17

@eddie, I didn't miss your point, I actually agree with you.

My additional point was that my jaded ass doesn't trust anyone. I'm almost certain there are used watches for sale that are on their 3rd owner or more and prior history is unknown. A seller wouldn't be deceiving you if they actually believed the case hadn't been opened if they actually weren't aware of it being opened.

In addition, I don't believe that my statement is incorrect, properly installed caseback and seals should guarantee a watch is water resistant to a spec'd depth, otherwise it is defective or damaged, this assumes of course that the watch manufacturer is honest about their initial claims in the first place. Watches are designed to meet a specification, if the correct parts and procedures are followed they should meet spec unless they are defective.


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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by Hater on 2013-03-09, 10:00

My first "three" questions to a seller;

-Has the watch ever been serviced and if so by whom?
-Has the watch ever been opened and if so by whom and for what reason?
-Has the watch ever been polished and if so by whom?

That is typically the start of my correspondence. The price point dictates my questioning.

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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by eddiea on 2013-03-09, 12:24

Hater wrote:My first "three" questions to a seller;

-Has the watch ever been serviced and if so by whom?
-Has the watch ever been opened and if so by whom and for what reason?
-Has the watch ever been polished and if so by whom?

That is typically the start of my correspondence. The price point dictates my questioning.

Same here, lately though (like in this case) some folks are opening new divers, for the sole purpose of changing the color or somewhat increasing the lume , which I think is silly and devaluated the watch.

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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by aztecknight on 2013-03-09, 21:35

eddiea wrote:
Hater wrote:My first "three" questions to a seller;

-Has the watch ever been serviced and if so by whom?
-Has the watch ever been opened and if so by whom and for what reason?
-Has the watch ever been polished and if so by whom?

That is typically the start of my correspondence. The price point dictates my questioning.

Same here, lately though (like in this case) some folks are opening new divers, for the sole purpose of changing the color or somewhat increasing the lume , which I think is silly and devaluated the watch.

These are all good points and something I'm going to start incorporating into my sales ads.

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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by Hater on 2013-03-10, 10:11

Apologize in advance for the hijack.

The third question is important to me because I have seen quite afew higher end watches ruined defaced turned to crap (you get the idea) by someone that thought they knew what they were doing.
Seller thinks by polishing the scratches/swirlys out, and making it all shiny again they can get a premium.

more hijacking=
I recently inquired about a watch selling north of 4 grand from a reputable jewelry/watch store and requested more pics to check condition (& verify authenticity), upon receipt of pics I noticed some slight waves in the case and bracelet. I asked seller if the watch was ever polished and if so where, was told it had been polished inhouse to bring it back to its original condition. They did a noble try but ruined the watch imo.
I would rather purchase a watch unmolested and send it in for a professional spa treatment.

Purchasing watches that were serviced, polished and/or repaired by "watchmakers" in jewlery shops are hit & miss and seldom are tested adequately for correct WR. Sell me a unmolested one and I'll send it to the manufacturer for service, etc.

Hijack over & thanks for the thread Eddie.
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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by eddiea on 2013-03-10, 11:56

Hater wrote:Apologize in advance for the hijack.

The third question is important to me because I have seen quite afew higher end watches ruined defaced turned to crap (you get the idea) by someone that thought they knew what they were doing.
Seller thinks by polishing the scratches/swirlys out, and making it all shiny again they can get a premium.

more hijacking=
I recently inquired about a watch selling north of 4 grand from a reputable jewelry/watch store and requested more pics to check condition (& verify authenticity), upon receipt of pics I noticed some slight waves in the case and bracelet. I asked seller if the watch was ever polished and if so where, was told it had been polished inhouse to bring it back to its original condition. They did a noble try but ruined the watch imo.
I would rather purchase a watch unmolested and send it in for a professional spa treatment.

Purchasing watches that were serviced, polished and/or repaired by "watchmakers" in jewlery shops are hit & miss and seldom are tested adequately for correct WR. Sell me a unmolested one and I'll send it to the manufacturer for service, etc.

Hijack over & thanks for the thread Eddie.
No hijack at all, if you think about it, part of the same problem and relative to the subjet big picture...great points!
I will add, those beadblasting a new case for the looks , just to post it for sale later advertising it as an "beautiful improvement", the ones black "monokoting" a Rolex Sub and then try to sale the feature as "desirable" , and of course, Seikos in vogue saphire crystal mod, all these mods are accomplished at the cost of screwing up the W/R...little personal story, I had two Sumos a blue now belong to Ron (barnbuilder) and an orange, now long gone, the orange came with the infamous saphire mod and the retesting for the W/R in writing...someting I always ask in a modded watch, or I look elsewhere.

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Re: A question about water resistance in general with emphasis on divers... ....

Post by kahuna74 on 2013-03-13, 14:24

I just bought a Seiko m726. The seller said it has a new battery in place. Made it very clear up front it should have a new seal installed and be tested for W/R. that made me happy because I know what I need to do upfront rather than finding out to late. I am learning to ask questions.
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